So, over the past few days, I’ve seen some posts and conversations about NCT, Super Junior’s original concept, and the whole idea of rotational groups. I ended up falling down the rabbit hole, and it got me thinking, why is this something companies (especially SM) keep trying to make work? Because unlike in J-pop, this model doesn’t really seem to work in K-pop. Can it ever work? A "rotational group" is a musical ensemble where the members frequently change. While the group’s name and overall concept stay the same, the actual lineup of performers shifts over time. In theory, and in practice, as J-pop has shown, if you do this right, you can make bank. You get a kind of “eternal group” that never needs to disband. But pulling this off is much easier said than done. Rotational Groups in J-Pop Not all J-pop groups use the rotational system, obviously, but it’s a defining feature of some of the most popular and long-running idol groups, like AKB48, Morning Musume, and others. These groups often have large rosters, with members rotating in and out over time, usually through graduation or similar systems. In general, this model is most commonly seen in girl groups, and not just any girl groups, but those with a fanbase made up primarily of male fans, especially older ones, often referred to as “oyaji” fans. That part is important. Yes, there are female fans too, but the core demographic has historically been men who are emotionally invested in the idea of supporting cute, young idols. This plays a huge role in the continued success of these groups. The (kind of sad) truth is that as long as the group continues to feature young, pretty girls doing idol-like things like singing, dancing, acting cute, doing fanservice, the fanbase will stick around. Some members become more popular than others, sure, but most fans are more attached to the concept than to the individual members. Enter SuJu Now, considering that K-pop has historically had a female-dominated fandom (I would even argue that early girl groups like Fin.K.L, Baby V.O.X, and even S.E.S had more female than male fans, something that shifted for a while but seems to be coming back in recent years), you'd think a boy group using a rotational concept would make absolute bank, right? Right? Well… no. Even if SM really thought so. Female fans tend to support their idols a lot more; they're more vocal, spend more money, promote them harder, etc., compared to male fans. That said, female fans usually get attached not just to the group but to the individual members and the chemistry between them. And the companies historically promote that. This is a huge part of why K-pop has such active (and often extreme, sometimes to a fault) fandoms. It’s also why boy groups in the West have similar fan behavior. Female fans like the music and the concept, but also the members. And often, they like the concept because of the music and the members. So when the members change, the sound changes, the dynamics change, the members they love are gone, and of course, they’re not going to support the group the same way. In 2005, it was announced that SM Entertainment would be making a 12-member boy group to debut within the year. The group was called “The Gateway to Stardom of Asia,” and most of the members were chosen for their experience as actors, MCs, models, and radio hosts before debut. Some were already established actors at the time, and most of the others had made various appearances on TV and in media. The inspiration was the rotational concept of Morning Musume, and to some extent SMAP, who were also active as actors and entertainers besides being singers. Lee Soo Man said that this new group would go through lineup changes, with new members replacing selected ones every year to keep the group constantly young and all-rounded. This was new to K-pop, and… it did not work the way they were expecting it to. When it came time to change the lineup in 2006 and they added Kyuhyun, fans were not happy. And even after SM confirmed they weren’t going to replace anyone, just add more Chinese members through Super Junior-M, fans were still not into it. Because what they liked wasn’t just the members as individuals, but the dynamics between them. And obviously, when new people come in, that dynamic changes. Even though Zhou Mi and Henry weren’t going to replace anyone, they still weren’t really wanted. Add to that the fact that with Kyuhyun, even some of the existing members initially seemed hesitant, which is very different from J-pop groups, where everyone knows and accepts the concept from the beginning. So yeah, people weren’t happy. It was kind of a mess. To this day, the Chinese members are still seen as just part of Super Junior-M, and while that whole situation has calmed down over the years, there are definitely still fans who don’t fully accept them as part of the full group. That said, big groups and sub-units in K-pop did become more common because of Super Junior, even if the original rotational concept was dropped because it just didn’t work. After School did not work that much either, though Another group that tried the rotational system was After School. And even though it went much better than Super Junior’s situation, it still didn’t work out as expected. In retrospect, it was never going to have the kind of longevity that Japanese rotational groups have, even though it was a girl group. And it honestly pains me, because they delivered bops. But… After School was (or technically is, since Pledis never officially disbanded them) a girl group under Pledis Entertainment, formed by leader and first member Kahi together with the CEO of Pledis. The group had an admission–graduation system, where members were added or withdrawn in a “natural” way over time. Some days before their debut, Pledis announced that the group’s music concept was heavily influenced by the Pussycat Dolls. And while the concept was on the sexier side a lot of the time, After School’s appeal actually resonated with a lot of female fans. The members weren’t super young or pushing the typical “pure and cute” idol image that other girl groups had. In the first lineup, the youngest member was 19 and the oldest was 28. They had a sexy, yes, but also more badass kind of vibe. So even though they tried to follow the graduation system used by J-pop groups, it was obvious from the start that their fanbase wasn’t the same kind. And as established before, the nature of the fandom is crucial. Yes, the most successful lineup wasn’t the first one, but still, there was a most successful lineup. And over time, fans started to feel bummed out when the members they liked started leaving. Sure, Pledis’ management was shit (no surprise there), but even though “Bang!”, “Shampoo” and other songs were hits, and even though the group had momentum, and even Orange Caramel did really well, fans still had favorite members and favorite lineups. So when people kept leaving, fans started checking out little by little. And eventually, Pledis just stopped trying. Back to SM The year is 2016, and Lee Soo-man delivers a presentation explaining how SM plans to debut a boy group that would contain an “unlimited” number of members, who would debut in separate sub-units within the group. The members would form “sub-unit teams” and have “collaborations” with each other. One of the OG sub-units of NCT is NCT Dream. They were originally intended to be the teenage unit of NCT, with an admission-and-graduation system, where members would leave after reaching the age of majority. And of course, it didn’t work, just like it didn’t work with Super Junior. Graduation systems just don’t fly with female fans. Doesn’t matter if the members are still part of other sub-units or the main group; fans like the dynamics and relationships between the members, and that would be lost. There is a reason shipping culture is huge in K-pop. After wrapping up promotions for their EP Reload, NCT Dream dropped the original graduation concept and continued on as seven members, with Mark returning to the lineup. In general, NCT’s concept isn’t exactly a graduation system. The idea is that it's made up of several different units based in different cities around the world. But it does have rotational sub-units, and it did have a graduation-style system sub-unit at the beginning. And of course, members are constantly being added. Is this viable? Honestly, I don’t know. I’m not sure how well this works, or doesn’t work. Undeniably, NCT is successful, but I am not sure about the longevity of this system. Not every sub-unit has the same success, and not every idol gets the same opportunities. That in itself creates a situation where the fandom kind of cannibalizes itself, but that’s a convo for another post. The important thing here is that the graduation system didn’t work with NCT either. And we’re talking about a case where the members wouldn’t even be leaving the group, just shifting sub-units. K-pop fans are just more loyal, especially female fans, and especially with boy groups. I personally don’t think this kind of system can work the same way in K-pop. And honestly, I believe that the failure of the original Dream concept kind of made NCT’s whole concept take a step back. Dream was an excellent way to introduce new members seamlessly, but now, that option’s kind of gone. Can it ever work? So, ok, it cannot work the same way in K-pop. But can it ever work at all? Honestly, personally, I think there are very few ways it could work. One is a straight-up copy-paste of the Japanese predecessors, not just “inspired by.” Meaning: it has to be a girl group, with a lot of members, and the main fanbase has to be predominantly male uncle-fans. The songs must be catchy and general-public-friendly. I really can’t see smaller groups (and I mean less than 15 members) where the interactions and relationships are more intimate, and overall, different, working in this system. I also can’t see female-dominated fandoms being ok with graduations, whether it’s a gg or a bg. The second way I think it might work, and this one doesn’t fall under the very questionable decision of marketing young girls to grown-ass men, is to be completely different. Either a girl group or a boy group, even a co-ed group, but… the music has to be general public-friendly, and the main focus has to be the music and the vocals. I can totally see a ballad or heavily vocal/melodic group like that making bank in Korea and Asia as a whole. Have members that aren’t necessarily young, but extremely talented, making music that resonates with the general public. You could play with graduations and rotations based on musical style and vocal match-ups, and of course, the members could promote solo work and all that. But this isn’t your typical idol experience. I can see it having longevity and appeal to older audiences, with good streams, sales, and concerts. But I can’t see a group like that building a following like AKB48. And I definitely don’t see it having strong international appeal either. In general, it just can’t function as a standard idol group. It wouldn’t sell the same parasocial fantasy that idol groups rely on, and that’s kind of the whole point of the idol system in the first place. So, do you think it can work? If yes, how? submitted by /u/Any-Listen4184 [link] [comments]
